Why Education Is More Important Than Ever for Condo Investors

Andrew la Fleur: On today's episode we talk about why education is more important than ever for condo investors. Stay tuned.

Speaker 2: Welcome to the True Condos Podcast with Andrew la Fleur, the place to get the truth on the Toronto condo market and condo investing in Toronto.

Andrew la Fleur: Hi there and welcome back to the show, thanks again for tuning in, your host here, Andrew la Fleur as always with the True Condos Podcast. If you want to get ahold of me, you can email me andrew@truecondos.com, you can call me or text me, 416-371-2333. Today's episode, I had a chance to sit down again with Brian Bogaert for the second time, he's been on the show before. Brian is somebody cool and interesting, not the typical guest we have on the show. He's outside of the real estate industry, but we're talking about real estate. So, he actually comes from the finance wealth management, wealth coaching side of things, he's a wealth coach and he teaches people how to make money and preserve and grow your wealth.

Andrew la Fleur: One of the areas in particular he's interested in and he's had great success personally in, is in pre-construction condo investing. So, very cool to have somebody's perspective from outside of the industry of real estate. He's not a realtor or anything like that, but yet somebody who really knows what they're talking about, and who's walked the walk and not just talk the talk when it comes to investing in condos. So, Brian's also got a cool course that you'll hear about, and if you're interested you can talk to Brian and learn more about, where he actually teaches people all the ins and outs of investing in condos and specifically the strategies that he has used to grow his own personal wealth, investing in condos. So that's cool.

Andrew la Fleur: We talk a lot about mindset and education and how it's just more important than ever during these uncertain times that we're in to have the right mindset and to really be educated on investing, to understand the fundamentals, to know why you're doing what you're doing and to have a plan and to execute a plan. A lot of people over the last few years as the real estate in particular, the condo market has been absolutely soaring and flying for a number of years. People did very well without really thinking at all, just basically throwing darts at the board and buying something somewhere and people made money, and that's a good for them, and that's okay when times are good, but it's really when times are more challenging as they are right now, and there's a lot of uncertainty out there.

Andrew la Fleur: That's when it's just a good reminder once again, and a good refocusing time for all of us as condo investors to invest in ourselves, to understand the importance of education and of mindset and just having the right mindset when you're looking at investing in anything. But in particular, we're talking of course, about investing in condos and growing your wealth through real estate. Okay. So without further ado, here is my interview with Brian Bogaert. Enjoy. Brian, welcome back to the show, good to have you on again.

Brian Bogaert: Hey Andrew, it's great to be back, and a little bit different circumstances than when we last chatted in January, February, isn't it?

Andrew la Fleur: Yes. The world is definitely a lot different now, but yeah I think it's great to have you back on the show again. I enjoyed our conversation last time and it's good, I think, for people to obviously to hear perspectives from people like myself who are in the real estate industry specifically, and this is our bread and butter obviously, people like myself referring to, but it's great I think for people to hear also from somebody like yourself and that's why I wanted to have you back on. As somebody who ... you're an investor yourself, you are a wealth coach, you teach people how to make money and grow their wealth through various means, one of which is through real estate. But it's cool because you have a bit of a unique and different perspective. I think people can learn from that and appreciate that as well, just as somebody who's experienced in the space, but not in the space itself, if that makes sense, in the industry itself.

Andrew la Fleur: Yeah. So, good to have you back, Brian. So, obviously elephant in the room, the COVID world that we're in maybe I'll ... everybody's just ... it's just something that's we're talking about constantly, but let me pose this question to you. From a real estate perspective, what would you say has changed in the world from your vantage and what is still the same? If that makes sense. What's changed, what's different now and what is actually the same?

Brian Bogaert: Yeah. Good start off question. Getting to the perspective of what has been going on over these past months. What has changed? I think for me, what has changed is ... even with the last time we spoke, which was before all this happened, I still was seeing lots of people who were able to get into real estate investing without much of a plan, right? We were in the very good years where if you picked up a condo project in Toronto or the GTA, even if you didn't do a heck of a lot of due diligence or that you were probably in a pretty good spot, right? Just based on what was going on. But now what we've seen with ...

Brian Bogaert: I was just reading an article today about the massive influx of condos that are on the marketplace right now, because of all the people that were doing Airbnb, who were freaked out in the past six months, and so now they're moving to a regular rental, but then that's competing with all the other rentals, which are already under stress. So, I think that the big thing that has changed is a lot of people are ... As Warren Buffet would say, "You find out who's swimming naked when the tide goes out." Right? And clearly the tide went out this year in the spring and then further in the summer, and now again, in the second wave, and we're finding out who was swimming naked and who really didn't have a plan and who didn't do much due diligence, and were just investing based on a tip they heard or FOMO, fear of missing out.

Brian Bogaert: So I think that one thing that's changed is, I'm getting a lot more requests now from people of like, "I want to learn how to be an investor not a speculator, and really understand and have a proven process and learn the fundamentals." I think that the part that hasn't changed is, the fundamentals are still applicable, right? The same things that you and I were talking about a year ago, three years ago, the things that we were sharing with our clients and our listeners, those things haven't changed. Those fundamentals are, I would say, even more important during times like this, because you don't want to get into this situation, which a lot of people are in, where they had one exit strategy, right, one plan, this was what they were going to do, it was going to be the land of milk and honey, and they were going to make money no matter what, and now they're finding out that that strategy doesn't pay off when we do have these unforeseen circumstances.

Brian Bogaert: So, I think those are the things that have changed and stayed the same, and maybe it's really that in the change realm that people have come to the conclusion of, "Oh, that's why you need to learn the fundamentals. That's why you have to have a plan for investing. That's why you need to be in this for the long-term not this quick short term, make a buck kind of idea that I think a lot of people had been utilizing for a few years."

Andrew la Fleur: Yeah. Interesting. So, I think some people are on that page with you and thinking strategically and thinking in a logical manner. But I think there's also a lot of people out there in times like these that are thinking irrationally, call it, and who are in a bit of a panic mode, not everybody obviously, but obviously I am getting calls weekly from people who I would describe in a little bit of an irrational sort of panic mode, if that makes sense. I'm guessing you're encountering some of that yourself. What would be your advice to those people specifically who are a little bit worried or panicked or extremely concerned, call it, about the market right now? What would you say to those people from your vantage point? What are you seeing? What are you observing?

Andrew la Fleur: As you said, the fundamentals you still believe are unchanged and the fundamentals of the market are good. So maybe you can get into what are those fundamentals specifically that you are seeing and what would you say to somebody who is feeling worried right now?

Brian Bogaert: Yeah, you're absolutely right. I am getting that. In fact, I had a client who took my pre-construction condo training program a year ago, and then actually bought into one of the projects with you. He called me the other day and was ... same sort of thing, a little bit in freak out mode, a little bit of worrying about it. So we had a good chat, and by the end of it, he's like, "I just feel so much better now." I find I am being the calm little center of the universe for a lot of my clients and people that I've invested with and whatnot around that. Mostly what it is, I'm re-presencing them back to facts, data, the fundamentals. Right? Because I'm sure you must see what's going on in the news right now.

Brian Bogaert: It's funny because I did a webinar with another realtor the other day. As part of his presentation, he went through headlines that had been in the media March, April, May, June, July, all the way to August, and every one of the headlines was basically Toronto real estate about to fall off a cliff. Every single month, that's what the headline was, and yet when he went through the data and actually dug into sales and statistics and comparisons to last year and all this stuff, it's like we're exactly where we probably would have been, maybe not as good based on what they were predicting in January of what this year was going to do, but we're certainly not in a loss situation, we're back to where we started.

Brian Bogaert: Yes, there was a significant drop and then back up again, and that was a little unnerving for people but this is where and so the advice I give to people is, think back to what your strategy was and what your plan was. Now, another thing that ... and this is one of the reasons why I love real estate, and I know you do as well is, because real estate doesn't wind up having ... it's not like in the stock market where Trump makes some ridiculous statement and the next day stocks go down by 30%, right? That's not the way that it works in the real estate industry. It tends to take days, weeks, months for things to happen. Now, of course it's not as liquid either, but there again, if you don't have to sell in this particular moment, when there's all this chaos and that going on, then what are you worried about, right? That goes back to having multiple exit strategies.

Brian Bogaert: I mean, I've had to potentially look at some of my strategies for some of my investments and alter those and be like, "Okay, what was my plan B or my plan C for my exit strategy?" And maybe now I need to move to that plan, right, and that's protection of exit strategy. One of the three Ps that I go through in my programs for people, protection of capital, protection of ROI, protection of exit strategy, so that you are ready and able to make these decisions and know this. I mean, the big thing this goes back to, and unfortunately it doesn't help the people that are already in this situation, but as long as you have a property that is cash flowing or at least break even, or maybe minimally losing now because of the way rents have gone down, you should be able to weather the storm. You should be able to get through this. Right? That's why I think it's so important as I had reinforced for me, as I read all the Rich Dad Poor Dad books, you make your money when you buy not when you sell.

Brian Bogaert: I didn't know what that meant for the first couple of years after hearing that, and then when I got deeper into it and I really realized, "Oh, that's where when I come up with my strategy, buy at a discount in order to protect capital, make sure that I've got multiple exit strategies so I can protect my exit, make sure that I'm running my numbers and positively cash flowing so I can protect my ROI or at least coming close not just speculating on appreciation." Then when those things are in place, I can weather this storm, and that's what I'm re-presencing people that are reaching out to me right now.

Brian Bogaert: If you bought something where you were losing $600 a month, and the only way you were going to do it was as an Airbnb, and now you can't find any clients, there's not that much I can really tell you to talk you down off of the wedge other than, "Okay, now you need to start checking into different options. You need to see what else is possible, you need to look at the real data." Again, an interesting statistic that I read, right? You see the headline, right? "Rents plummet in the GTA again." Then I read the article and it's like they're down 13% from where they were a year ago. 13%? Like you're talking about maybe $250 a month, right? That's plummeting on something where you were making 2300 or $2,400 a month, you're maybe down to 250 a month. I get it if you were already in a negative cashflow situation, then that's going to hurt. But if you were positive cashflow or break even then again, you're just weathering through a storm, because we know these things are going to come back.

Brian Bogaert: Right now again, everybody's quoting the negative statistics. Immigration has ground to a halt. What do you think is going to happen when it comes back online again? I had a colleague that I was chatting about this the other day, and they're saying, "Can you imagine, given the way Canada has gotten through COVID versus something like the U.S., if you were an immigrant in another country, where are you going to want to move to after this is over?" Right? So, there could be a massive backlog of people flocking to Canada once the restrictions are limited, and we start to get back to normal. I mean, we could see record breaking immigration numbers in the first couple of years. I think they won't be able to keep up with all the people trying to come here.

Brian Bogaert: So, it's about battening down the hatches right now, getting through the storm, doing what you need to do to manage cashflow, and then understanding that it is going to get better. The sun is going to come back out again, the fundamentals will pay off. You and I had this discussion when we were talking about what the pre-con builders are doing right now, share that right now, what you're seeing in the pre-con industry, because I think that's very telling that the builders aren't panicking, so why would we be panicking? Right?

Andrew la Fleur: Yeah. You mean in terms of our conversation around the change in the deposit structure?

Brian Bogaert: What I found interesting was, you had mentioned that the builders aren't really dropping their prices.

Andrew la Fleur: Right.

Brian Bogaert: Right?

Andrew la Fleur: Yeah, that's so sure.

Brian Bogaert: So clearly, they understand that there's no reason to panic and projects that are going to be ready four to five years from now are still going to be very profitable. That's what they're predicting and that everything is going to be fine, this is going to shake out. If they thought, "Oh my God, the sky is falling." Then they would have no choice, but to drop their prices dramatically. Right? But they're not. We know that builders are more long-term thinkers. They have to be just based on what they do.

Brian Bogaert: So when you and I had that conversation, yeah, the incentives to buy the deposit structures, they're looking at ways for people now to mitigate risk, but they're clearly not that concerned about what's going to be going on four to five years from now, and that is comforting to someone like myself, and I'm sure you and your listeners who are invested more for the medium to longterm, and weren't expecting to make a 100 grand in the next six months or something like that, like a lot of your speculators are.

Andrew la Fleur: Yeah, it's a great point. I think when it comes to long-term thinking, obviously it's something that is essential for success in real estate, but I think it's for most people to skill that takes time to learn, most people by default human nature, whatever you want to call it are thinking short-term, thinking what's right in front of you, six months, 12 months, maybe at the most in front of you. So that's where you do start to see people starting to make maybe bad decisions as they're not looking at the bigger picture. Like you said, a simple exercise to say, "Well, how should I be thinking at the market?" If you're having a hard time getting that broader perspective, just look at what developers are doing. As you said, a developer is not like an individual investor, a developer is thinking much longer term.

Andrew la Fleur: Even a small developer is still thinking about the time in five-year increments, the time to acquire a piece of land, develop it, build it, and finally all the closings take place and the return on their investment is realized. They're thinking in five-year chunks of time, minimum, and the bigger the builder, the longer they've been around, the more projects, the more land bank that they have. The longer term they're thinking, when you get to the top, top, top builders in Canada, they're thinking not thinking in terms of five years or even 10. A lot of the top builders have like 25 year plans where they've got land-

Brian Bogaert: Absolutely.

Andrew la Fleur: They're buying land today that they won't develop for 20 years from now, they won't see ROI for 25 years from now in some cases.

Brian Bogaert: A good friend of mine, his family are builders. You're exactly right. We were talking about this a couple of weeks ago and he was saying they're only now looking at developing a piece of land that they've had, they've owned this for almost 30 years. Right? It's not even the dad who started the company, it's really now his sons and daughters who are implementing this plan and taking this forward. So you're absolutely right. Listen, I get it. All the people [crosstalk 00:19:43]

Andrew la Fleur: How many cycles have they gone through? How many times-

Brian Bogaert: Exactly.

Andrew la Fleur: over the 30 years ... Great example. How many times over the 30 years that they've owned that piece of land, where people probably shouting in their ear, "The market sucks, you better sell?" But 30 years later, they didn't listen, and now here they are. Right?

Brian Bogaert: Now everybody calls them lucky, right? Like, "Wow, look how lucky you are, you bought that piece of land 30 years ago, or you bought that pre-con project five years ago and look how lucky you are." Right? Like, "Yeah, no, it's not about luck." I get it, right? When COVID first hit in the spring, and then now with the second wave, I understand that a lot of people, the question on their mind is, "How am I going to make my rent? How am I going to pay my family, my mortgage payments, all the rest of it?" So I completely understand that we have this pull towards, "What am I going to do over the next few months? Where can I get money?" I'm not saying that that needs to be out of the picture. I mean, even myself, right?

Brian Bogaert: You and I spoke in January, February, I was getting ready to launch the next version of my pre-construction program that I do, and COVID hit, and it's like, "Okay, this clearly is not the right timing for this." So I put it on the shelf for a few months because that was not the priority that people were talking about. But I have found now that summer we had a little bit of a reprieve and now people are saying, "Okay, there will be a light at the end of the tunnel here." Now people are starting to approach, ask questions, think about, "What can I do to get ready for when we do come back out in the sunlight again, when we get past this stuff?"

Brian Bogaert: There again, going back to what I said earlier, I see a lot of people that are recognizing, "Now is the time for me to get educated, now's the time for me to do my research, do my due diligence, develop my networks and my relationships so that when the opportunities do start to present themselves, I'll be ready to pull the trigger." Right? That's just smart investing. That's what wealthy people have done for centuries and generations and more of this 25 to 30 year type of thinking, or even five-year thinking is what are the steps that I can take now to be ready to take advantage of the opportunities so that I can reach my three to five-year goals. Right?

Brian Bogaert: That's how I operate, that's how you operate, and a lot of the people that I'm speaking to coaching and teaching, that's how they're operating. They're seeing this time as an opportunity, right? You can go make your YouTube videos about your dog's Halloween costume, or you can be researching investments that you want to be pulling the trigger on this winter. Right?

Andrew la Fleur: Yeah. Great point. I know you're a student of psychology as well. I'm just thinking of something as we're talking. I mean, I just find it interesting that, it's people's behavior, generally, it tends to be the opposite of what you would other ... what you would think would make the most sense, people tend to do the opposite.

Brian Bogaert: You mean like uncommon sense? That's what I call it. It's not common sense, it's uncommon sense. Yeah.

Andrew la Fleur: Yeah. But I mean, just with respect to, like you said, you have clients calling and worried and call it panic mode a little bit. I'm getting a lot of these calls and emails, "Andrew, the market, I see these headlines, everything is bad, should I sell? I want to sell, is it time to sell? Should I get out? I need to get out." All Right? It's like the worst time to sell is when people rush to sell, and the worst time to buy is when people are rushing to buy. Just wondering if you had any thoughts on that in terms of just the psychology behind people maybe right now, and helping people navigate that and help us think about our thinking, if that makes sense.

Brian Bogaert: I love that question and you're absolutely right, and it is something that I do pay a lot of attention to, that meta level of that. Because yeah, you have a choice, you can either be part of the herd, right, and operate a lot like they do, and then wind up with the same results, or you can apply a little bit of thinking and a little bit of strategy and see. So, yeah, I completely agree with you. One of the things that I talk a lot [inaudible 00:24:12] my clients with is, since the first day you ever heard the term investing, you've been told, "Buy low sell high." But yet, what do the vast majority of people do? They do the complete opposite, and we saw this right a few years ago when the Toronto real estate market was booming like crazy and people were putting in offers $300,000 over asking, they were buying high, right?

Brian Bogaert: Now when we're in trouble and ... not necessarily trouble, but hard times, things aren't the same, it's not the land of milk and honey, people are rushing to sell and freaking out and doing that and buying and selling low. Right? Again, I'll quote Warren Buffet. He has an expression, "Be fearful when others are greedy and be greedy when others are fearful." Now, I'm not a big fan of the word greedy, I would rather have it as like take action when others are fearful and be fearful when everybody else is rushing to the door to take action. But this is really the time. I had a couple that started working with me, they live in Calgary, they started working with me a year ago, again, we went through the education, the empowerment, they wanted to learn a process and the fundamentals, they bought their first investment property in Calgary in January. Right?

Brian Bogaert: Now, initially there was a bit of a freak out on their part. They were reaching out to me with a lot of questions, we got it sorted, we got it rented. Guess what they're doing now? They got their second property in May because everything was on sale. Right? That take action when others are fearful. Now we're having these discussions back and forth about, "Okay, how do we leverage our financing in the best possible way to get another property given what's going on?" Right? So, that's the psychology around it all. Now, it ain't easy, right? And we're having lots of conversations around it because clearly they understand that they don't want to make a mistake, or they don't want to get too overzealous about it and over leverage themselves, but they absolutely understand this concept of, wealthy people build massive amounts of wealth during down cycles.

Brian Bogaert: That's actually, when the vast majority of wealthy people will exponentially grow their wealth because they are taking advantage of the opportunities that present themselves, they were on the sidelines watching when people were bidding 300 grand over asking, and now, when people are in panic sell mode, that's when they're stepping in and picking things up at a discount, and you see this in the business world. I just saw an announcement the other, that one of the giant oil and gas companies is buying Husky because it's at a discount right now. Right? They weren't talking about that a year ago, but they're sure talking about it now. Right?

Brian Bogaert: One other thing to mention about that is, sometimes people will look at that and go, "Oh, that's predatory." I'm not talking about that stuff, I'm talking about a situation where somebody has a property or there's a project going on and it's a discount, and what they absolutely need in that moment is a buyer, because they need to sell to get out from a world of hurt. Right? So, that person needs a buyer in that moment. You're actually helping to facilitate them getting out of trouble. I'm not talking about coming in and low-balling people and trying to take advantage of the people.

Andrew la Fleur: Right.

Brian Bogaert: But you take advantage of the opportunities that are presented now to get into investing or add to your portfolio at a much better price than what was going on a year ago, better incentives, better deposit structures, those types of things. Right?

Andrew la Fleur: Talk about ... going back to earlier in the conversation like that person or that client or that investor who is saying, "I want to sell, I think I need to sell." What would you advise that person right now in terms of like you said? I think for me, the critical question I throw back at people is, "Do you need to sell?"

Brian Bogaert: Absolutely.

Andrew la Fleur: "Why would you sell now? It's a horrible time to sell. Let's find out if you actually need to sell."

Brian Bogaert: Absolutely.

Andrew la Fleur: And evaluate it like that. But what would you say?

Brian Bogaert: Exactly, Andrew. That's where I start with them is like, "So tell me what's the motivation or what is your reasons for needing to sell right now?" And 99 times out of a 100, it's an emotional response, probably because they've been sitting there watching CNN for 72 straight hours or reading the headlines, right, and they're freaking out about this stuff. So, one of the first things I presence them to is you understand that the news media is not there to inform you like it was 30 years ago, the news media is there to get your attention and sell advertising, right, and they're going to do everything in their power to make that happen. So first of all, stop watching the news, stop reading the headlines, look for real data. Right? Look for, like I said before, where they're talking about rents dropping like a stone and it's down 13%, that's crazy. Right? So that's the first thing.

Brian Bogaert: The second thing I might ask them, once we identify what's really going on for them is like, "Okay, so what would selling allow you to achieve?" "Well, then I'm going to have more money to be able to get through the next six months." "Okay. So, let's look at other additional sources, have you taken advantage of the government programs that are out there? Have you looked at deferring your mortgages of your rental property rather than selling it? Is it possible to do a refinance on your investment properties or your principal residence right now, have access to a line of credit?" I mean, right now borrowed money is the cheapest that we've seen in what was already monumentally cheap. It's gone down even more to the point where it's almost free money.

Brian Bogaert: So are there other sources of funds that you can come up with that are, again, going to get you to weather through that storm for the next six months or the next 12 months until hopefully things return to some a semblance of normalcy? But usually it's a knee jerk reaction that people are having, an emotional one. That's actually something, I mean, even before the pandemic, the first thing I usually do with people is something called a success snapshot. I used to call it a financial snapshot, but the word financial used to scare people to death, so now I call it a success snapshot. But nine times out of 10, when I do these with people, they come into it very worried that their financial situation is in bad shape. Then I help them see, actually, you're a way better off than you thought, because they're reacting to an emotional sensation.

Brian Bogaert: It's like going to the grocery store when you're hungry, right? You're not going to buy the right stuff at that point. Don't make financial and investment decisions when you're in this state of anxiety, when you're in the middle of this state of uncertainty. Then I usually presence people back to what are your goals? And for me in all the programs I do, all the coaching I do, that's first idea with mindset, what is your money mindset that's going on? And then the second thing that I do is, I help people really clue into, what are your goals? Your one-year goal, your five-year goals, your 10 year goals. Because then, when we get in a situation like this, where they're thinking of selling, because they're freaking out, I presence them to their goals. Then we look at, are you actually on track to achieving your goals?

Brian Bogaert: Oh, look at that. I actually am okay when it comes to my one-year goals and if I was to sell now, I would be getting actually further away from my five and 10 year goals. Okay? So then that doesn't really make a lot of sense. Does it? So let's look at other ways that we can help you achieve your one-year goals, but keep you on track with your five and 10 year goals. Again, I take the emotion out of it, I take all the ... out of it, presence people back down to facts and logic and a process and their plan, and nine times out of 10, people are like, "Oh." I literally had a client call me last week. I said, "Hey, what's up?" And he's like, "Nothing, I just really wanted to hear your voice, I'm feeling more calm already."

Brian Bogaert: That's what it starts to come down to in a lot of cases, is just being the voice of reasons that help you cut through this noise and this shock media that we have that are just trying to get eyeballs to read articles by saying pretty anything that they know. Right? Fear, unfortunately fear is a very powerful motivator for people in order to get them to watch the news and this sort of thing. Right? The news outlets understand that and they use it to their advantage.

Andrew la Fleur: Yeah. It's interesting. Yeah, I think it's like that famous Warren Buffett saying you alluded to, when the tide goes out, you find out ... What was it? You find out who's-

Brian Bogaert: You find out who's swimming naked.

Andrew la Fleur: Who's swimming naked. Yeah, yeah.

Brian Bogaert: In other words, they thought everything was good, right, when the tide was in, "Now let's swim naked." And then it goes out [crosstalk 00:33:15]

Andrew la Fleur: You look like a fool. When times are good, which in the real estate world, in the condo investment world, they at times have been good for many years, and now this year, no one could have ever predicted this.

Brian Bogaert: No.

Andrew la Fleur: But things are challenging and things are in a lot of ways turned upside down. I think a lot of people, like you said, just were buying anything anywhere without a thought, throw the dart at the board, they made money, they did well, they got good returns for the most part, and everybody looks like a genius, but it's when the tide goes out that, I think, it really exposes who had a plan and who didn't, who understood the fundamentals, who didn't. But also I think just speaking to somebody like yourself and in some ways, myself as well and people like us, I guess we'll call it. I think people need coaching, people need coaches, I think more than ever. People need ... like you said, somebody just hearing your voice feeling a bit calmer. Maybe you're listening to this podcast conversation right now, maybe it's helping sort of calm you down and help you think things through a little bit more rationally with a little bit of a different perspective than what was accessible inside your own head.

Andrew la Fleur: So, regardless of who it is, nothing to say about myself or Brian in this case, but just I'd encourage anybody listening, just find a coach, find that voice that helps you get some perspective, because we just need to acknowledge, it's a really weird year, it's a strange time, psychologically it is a challenging time on everyone. It's okay to acknowledge that, to admit that and to just seek out help in the form of coaching, whatever you want to call it, you need those outside voices more than ever at a time like this to, as you said, weather the storm.

Brian Bogaert: I completely agree with you, Andrew, and that's another thing that I'm sharing with friends, family, and reminding myself as well as it's like, "Don't use this year as a gauge ... how you're doing. A client that I was speaking to last week was beating himself up about his numbers on the investing side and on his business side. I'm like, "Dude, throw out the numbers for 2020, if you are breaking even and staying above water, then you should be having a fricking parade for yourself this year as far as I can see." If you're actually up and doing well like some people are, then thank your lucky stars and pay attention to why and what's going on around that. But I completely agree with you.

Brian Bogaert: It has been a very unusual year, a ton of stress on all of us, what I've looked at it, I recognize this fairly early on is, what we are witnessing is the world's relationship with uncertainty. Right? It's fascinating to see how that shakes out, right? How people respond to uncertainty and not knowing what's going to happen and not knowing when the end is going to happen and things are going to return to "normal." Right? That's what we're seeing in a lot of cases. Yeah, people have to just be easy on themselves, give themselves some slack, don't have the same sort of ... This is not the year for discipline and running iron mans, and all this. If you're doing it, great, but if you're feeling like, "Ah, I'm a little unmotivated to do 44 hours of training this week." Watch some Netflix, relax, that sort of thing.

Brian Bogaert: And there again, right? Like take this opportunity to get educated and empowered. I've always considered myself incredibly fortunate and grateful that I had mentors. I had people that I worked with and continued with, folks like yourself that I can call up and be like, "Hey Andrew, what have you seen going on here? What's this sort of ..." And you're absolutely right. It doesn't have to be you or I, but reach out to those people. That's why I started my coaching business because I wanted to be that I got when I was younger, when I needed to make some of these critical choices. Now I can share that with other people. That's who I find like ... Again, most of the people who contact me are like, "I know I want to do this. I absolutely want to get into this, but I don't know where to start, and the things that I have been pursuing have just felt like a sales pitch."

Brian Bogaert: I mean, you and I know most of these things that you go to these evening webinars or seminars or whatever, nine times out of 10, there's a project to sell at the end, and that's one of the unique things about my program around pre-con is, I don't have any projects to sell. Now, there are still people through my program that met you, and then they eventually pulled the trigger on that, but neither you nor I were selling people into a project, we were teaching them how to fish rather than handing them a fish. Then they were making their own decisions and they appreciated that they were working with professionals that knew what they were doing and were passionate about education empowerment, and so that's who they chose to work with.

Brian Bogaert: So, that's why I choose to do this the way that I do and not have projects for sale at the end of the program is really teach you the fundamentals and a process to do this over and over again, so you can build up a portfolio for yourself.

Andrew la Fleur: Awesome. On that note, Brian, as we're running short on time here. Yeah. Why don't you let people know if they are interested in learning more about your program, what's the best way for people to reach you?

Brian Bogaert: Yeah, absolutely. I know we'll put out something in the show notes around that as well, but probably the easiest thing to do is to shoot me an email at brianb... Brian is spelled with an I, so brianb@nlscoaching.com and that stands for next level success coaching. So it's an N as in Nancy. So brianb@nlscoaching.com, you shoot me an email, I'm going to be starting the next version of my pre-construction group coaching program. It's a 12 week program where we'll launch it in November, we'll go for a month or so, take a break for Christmas and then finish off in the new year exactly like I did a year ago with that.

Brian Bogaert: Again, there's no projects for sale in this. This is literally you learning from somebody who has doubled and tripled his money in doing pre-construction condo investing. I'm taking you through from soup to nuts exactly what I did from the moment I started to investigate an area and a project, how I did all my due diligence, what it looks like through signing, what it looks like to evaluate the contracts and then the exit strategy on the other end. I'm just literally taking you into my playbook of what I did in investing.

Brian Bogaert: And also, how do you find a platinum level realtor like yourself, Andrew? What about accountants? What about mortgage agents? We talk about all this stuff so that you have everything at your fingertips. You have that plan to be able to successfully get into investing in what I still believe is an extremely lucrative investment type, right? Pre-construction condominiums across the GTA and Canada for that matter.

Andrew la Fleur: Awesome. Great. Thank you so much, Brian. Like Brian said, if you want to learn more about that, feel free to reach out to him, and we'll include a link to that in the show notes for this episode as well. Brian, thanks again.

Brian Bogaert: As always, Andrew, I always love chatting with you, finding out what's going on. I love the approach you take to this industry and your passion and commitment to educating people through this podcast. So, my pleasure, thank you very much for having me on, and hopefully we can do this again one day.

Andrew la Fleur: Great. Thanks, Brian.

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