Filter by Categories
All Condos
Ask Andrew
New Condos by City
Halton Hills
Kawartha Lakes
Port Credit
Square One
Niagara Falls
Richmond Hill
St. Catherines
The Blue Mountains
Baldwin Village
Bayview Village
Bedford Park
Briar Hill
Brockton Village
Canary District
Casa Loma
Church & Carlton
Church & Wellesley
Church St. Corridor
Clanton Park
Corso Italia
Danforth Village
Davisville Village
Distillery District
Don Mills
East Junction
East York
Eglinton East
Eglinton West
Entertainment District
Fashion District
Financial District
Flemingdon Park
Forest Hill
Garden District
High Park
Junction Triangle
Kensington Market
King East
King West
Liberty Village
Little Italy
Little Portugal
Long Branch
Moss Park
Mount Pleasant Village
North York
Old Town
Regent Park
River District
St. Clair West
St. James Town
St. Lawrence
Tam O'Shanter-Sullivan
The Annex
The Junction
The Kingsway
The Queensway
Trinity Bellwoods
Victoria Park Village
Wallace Emerson
West Rouge
Yonge & Bloor
Yonge and College
Yonge and Dundas
Yonge and Eglinton
Yonge and Finch
Yonge and Lawrence
Yonge and Richmond
Yonge and Sheppard
Yonge and St. Clair
York Mills
New Condos by Deposit
10% Before Occupancy
15% Before Occupany
20% Before Occupancy
5% Before Occupancy
New Condos by Developer
16th Avenue Development
Ace Development Ltd
Acorn Developments
Addington Developments
Adi Development Group
Allegra Homes
Alterra Developments
Altree Developments
Amalfi Homes
Amexon Development
Andrin Homes
Angil Development
Aoyuan International
Aragon Properties Ltd
Armour Heights Developments
Artlife Developments
Arya Corporation
Ashcroft Homes
Aspen Ridge Homes
Balder Corporation
Ballymore Homes
Bazis Inc
Benvenuto Group
Biddington Homes
Blackdoor Development Company
Block Developments
Bloomfield Homes
Branthaven Homes
Briarwood Development Group
Brixen Developments
Brookfield Residential
Cachet Homes
Caivan Communities
Canderel Residential
Canlight Realty Corp
Capital Developments
Capital North Communities
Carlyle Communities
Carriage Gate Homes
Carttera Private Equities
Castlebridge Development Group
Castleridge Homes
Castleview Developments
Centrestone Urban Developments Inc
Centreville Homes
Chestnut Hill Developments
Choice Properties REIT
Choo Communities
Cityscape Development Corporation
Claireville Holdings Limited
Cliffside Homes
Clifton Blake
Coletara Development
Concert Properties
Concord Adex
Condoman Developments Inc
Conservatory Group
Constantine Enterprises Inc.
Consulate Development Group
Core Development Group
Cortel Group
CountryWide Homes
Craft Development
Creek Village Inc.
Cresford Developments
Crown Communities
Crystal Homes
CTN Developments
Curated Properties
Cystal Glen Homes
DBS Developments
DC&F Corp
Dez Capital
Diamante Development
Diamond Kilmer Developments
Dicenzo Homes
Distrikt Developments
Doornekamp Construction Ltd
Dormer Homes
Downing Street Group
Dream Unlimited Corp
Dundee Kilmer
DVLP Property Group
Eden Oak
ELAD Canada
EllisDon Capital
Emblem Developments
Empire Communities
Evans Planning Inc
Evertrust Development
Evertrust Development Group Canada
Fernbrook Homes
Fieldgate Urban
Fiera Real Estate
Fifth Avenue Homes
Firmland Development Corporation
First Avenue Properties
First Capital
Flato Developments
Forest Green Homes
Forest Hill Homes
FRAM + Slokker
G Group Developments
Gary Silverberg
Gemterra Developments Corporation
Genesis Homes
Georgian International
Globizen Developments
Gordon Wells Ltd.
Granite Homes
Great Gulf
Greatwise Developments
Greenfield Quality Builders
Greenland Group
Greenpark Group
Greybrook Realty
Guglietti Brothers
H&W Developments
Hans Group
Harhay Developments
Harlo Capital
Haven Developments
Hazelview Properties
Hi-Rise (West) Inc.
Homes by DeSantis
Hyde Park Homes
i2 Developments
Icon Homes
iKORE Developments Ltd
IN8 Developments
Investissement SM Immobilier
Ironwood Bay
JCF Capital
JD Development Group
KAD Development Group
Kaitlin Corporation
Kaleido Corporation
Kalovida Canada Inc
Kaneff Corporation
KBIJ Corporation
Kilmer Group
Kingdom Development
KingSett Capital
Knighstone Capital
Knightstone Capital
Kroonenberg Group
La Pue International
Lakeview Development Holdings Inc
Lalu Canada
Lamb Developments
Lancaster Homes
Lash Group of Companies
Latch Developments
Laurier Homes
LCH Developments
Les Entreprises QMD
Liberty Development
Liberty Hamlet Inc
Lifestyle Custom Homes
Lifetime Developments
LJM Developments
Lormel Homes
Madison Group
Malibu Investments
Manorgate Homes
Mansouri Living
Marlin Spring Developments
Marydel Homes
Matrix Development Group
Mattamy Homes
Mayfair Homes
MDM Developments
Medallion Capital Group
Mizrahi Developments
MOD Developments
Monde Development Group
Mutual Developments
Nahid Corp
Nascent Developments
National Homes
New Horizon Development Group
Newgard Development Group
NOCO Development Company
Norstar Group of Companies
North American Development Group
North Drive
North Edge Properties
Northam Realty Advisors
Northrop Development
Nova Ridge Development Partners
NYX Capital
Old Stonehenge
ONE Properties
One Urban
Options Development
Originate Developments
Oxford Properties
Parallax Development Corporation
Patry Inc Developments
Pemberton Group
Phelps Homes
Pinnacle International
Platinum Vista
Plaza Partners
Podium Developments
Presidential Group
Primont Homes
Profile Developments Inc
Quadcam Development Group
Queensgate Homes
RAJACan Developments Inc.
ReBuilt Construction
Reids Heritage Homes
Republic Developments
Residences at Bluffers Park
Rise Developments
Riverking Developments
Rivermill Homes
Rogers Real Estate Development
Rosehaven Homes
Rosewater Developments
Rowntree Enterprises
Royalpark Homes
Royalton Homes
Sag Development Corp
Sage Development Corp
Sapphire Construction of Niagara
Saxon Developments
Scholar Properties Ltd
Sequoia Grove Homes
Seven Numbers Development
Sherwood Homes
Shiplake Properties Limited
Sierra Building Group
SilverCreek Communities
Sina Development Inc
Skale Developments
SkyHomes Corporation
Solmar Development Group
Solotex Corporation
Spallacci Homes
St. Regis Homes
St. Thomas Developments
Stafford Homes
State Building Group
Sterling Group
Sundance Homes
Sunny Communities
Sunrise Gate Homes
Sutherland Developments
Tercot Communities
The Brown Group of Companies
The Goldman Group
The Hi-Rise Group
The Remington Group
The Rockport Group
The Rose Corporation
The Sher Corporation
Tiffany Park Homes
Times Group Corp
Townwood Homes
Treasure Hill
Tribute Communities
Tricon Developments
Trinity Development Group
Triumphant Group
Trolleybus Urban Development Inc
Trulife Developments
TVM Group
United Lands
Urbane Communities
Valery Homes
VanMar Developments
Venetian Development Group
Vermilion Developments
Vintage Park Homes
Wabash Heights Developments Inc
Westbank Corp
Westbank Corp. and Allied Properties
Woodcastle Homes
WP Development Inc
York Trafalgar Homes
Yorkwood Homes
Zancor Homes
New Condos by Occupancy Year
True Condos Approved
Filter by content type
Taxonomy terms

How Secure is the Rental Market? With Pauline Lierman of Urbanation

Urbanation just released their year end numbers for the Toronto condo rental market. Rental rates were up an incredible 12% in the fourth quarter of 2016! Yet many first time investors still wonder if they will be able to rent out their units when completed. Find out what Pauline Lierman, Director of Market Research for Urbanation has to say.


1:21 Will i be able to rent out my condo?
4:25 A lot of units in the pipeline. How are we going to fill all these units?
7:55 What were the key findings from the Q4 numbers report?
10:42 How did 2016  reports played out in reality versus what you predicted?
12:25 Rents go up 2% – 3% range and gone up 3, 4 times. What’s driving that?
13:44 How much new mortgage rules that came into place in the Q4 had effect on things?
16:33 Looking forward, what do you think of the purpose built rental in particular?
19:55 Is purpose built rental expected to come online in 2017?
21:30 What’s the common misconception about rental market that you want to address?

phones only

Listen to the True Condos Podcast on your iPhone or Android device!



Click Here for Interview Transcript

Andrew la Fleur: You’re thinking about investing in a new condo, but you’re just not sure if you’re gonna be able to rent it out when it’s completed. What happens if it sits empty for three months? Well, find out Pauline Lierman, the director of market research at Urbanation has to say about this on today’s episode.

Speaker 2: Welcome to the True Condos Podcast with Andrew la Fleur, the place to get the truth on the Toronto condo market and condo investing in Toronto.

Andrew la Fleur: It’s my pleasure to welcome back to the show Pauline Lierman. Pauline is the director of market research at Urbanation. Pauline, welcome back.

Pauline Lierman: Thank you for having me back once again.

Andrew la Fleur: Yeah. Excited to talk to you as always. Love hearing from you about what’s happening in the market with your unique and inside expert perspective on things as the director of market research, obviously looking at the numbers that’s happening in the market on a level that pretty much nobody else in the business is doing. It’s always great to talk to you.

The number one question, as I start with, the number question that I get from investors, and I thought maybe to use it as a springboard for our conversation today, the number one question or one of the questions I get is, especially from new investors, new people looking to buy a condo is, “Will I be able to rent out my condo?” It is sort of the underlying fear of, “I’m going to invest in this thing, I’m going to buy this property and it’s going to get built and finished and then what if nobody shows up? There’s no one there in the market to … What if I’m the last person stuck with the condo that nobody wants to rent kind of thing?” If someone asked you that question, how would you respond to that?

Pauline Lierman: I think that based on the market we’ve seen this year, I wouldn’t hesitate whatsoever in terms of being able to rent out your condo. Obviously, the latest CNC numbers are on, as a data geek myself, we always look for these numbers every year, in anticipation when we get our rental numbers from them and looking at the overall rental market as a whole. The vacancy rate in the city of Toronto is 1%. I’ve never seen anything that low in number of eight years. In fact, I remember that happening very late in the 90s as well in a very constrained period where you were fighting to find rentals. In the case of that we haven’t seen as many new units complete or new units in the condo market register which makes them officially pass over into the ownership hands.

We’re not getting that surge of supply that we had thought. We still have close to 50,000 units still under construction, but the deliveries are very staged out. The market can, the industry itself can only deliver so much in the period. That’s kept the supply running a wash. You’re not competing against X number of units when you come to the market on that end.

One of the things I think you might not think about this that when we see buildings being completed, we’re seeing a little bit more of the developers wanting to hold on to units, keep them, rent them for themselves. We’ve seen a couple of developers I know that have kept, have started their own rental pools within the building, because they’re confident that they can usually rent them out. They’re not just passing them off to whatever happens in the end of the day. They see what’s happened overall in the market and they’re pretty cautious people that I know that are doing this.

Overall, if they feel confident, you see the confidence going on there, I think it’s almost … I hate to say this term because it could always change two years down the road, but right now piece of cake basically.

Andrew la Fleur: Yeah, yeah. Isn’t it funny how the conversation with the condo market, how much it can change in a year or two years. It seems that it was not that long ago where all the headlines and all the chatter in the dialog and the discourse in the industry was around, “Oh boy, look at this. What have we gotten ourselves into? We’re building way too many condos. We’ve got 50,000, 80,000, whatever the number was, 100,000 of units in the pipeline. How are we ever going to fill all these units? Clearly this must be finally the time where it’s all gonna come to a horrible end.” What do you know, here we are today beginning of 2017 and it’s the exact opposite really. We’re actually saying, “Man, we should have built more.”

Pauline Lierman: I know. We as a market research firm six months ago wouldn’t have thought this. We’ve really had to reevaluate at the end of the year where the market is at in terms of overall supply. It’s not just rental, it’s every aspect of the market. It’s the resale, it’s the new sale, just this overall widening demand for new housing in the city and the GTA, in areas that you not necessarily would expect to do very, very well or maybe would have lagged a few years ago, there still seeing strong absorptions and strong demand in markets.

What’s happened is that has accelerated into a massive rent growth. For US to see nearly 12% rent growth year over year is quite astounding for US. We’ve had to change our real perception. We used to say as a market thing that only certain city, generally in this old city of Toronto would get $3 a foot for on a monthly basis. We’ve seen that grow extended across parts of the city itself and into other parts of overall 416, even in some individual buildings in the 905 we’re being able to get $3 a foot. That is something else.

In fact, there’s areas that are touching on that $4 to $5 range which is basically Yorkville. We’ve seen an acceleration in terms of luxury rents as well.

Andrew la Fleur: Yeah, absolutely. That elusive $3 a square foot. As I look at these numbers as well and as I look at the headline chart for this report that you just put out last week on the Q4 findings, the average GTA rent for the entire GTA now is $2.77 a square foot, getting closer and closer to that … We used to, again it was only three, four years ago where we used to talk about $3 a square foot as that’s the high end of the market.

Pauline Lierman: E street and that was in Yorkville.

Andrew la Fleur: Yeah, right. Couple of small pockets, yeah you might be able to get $3 a square foot. Probably more like $2.50 or something. Now, like you said, we’re seeing $3 a square foot all over the GTA in pockets all over the place. Obviously, the whole downtown is already there.

Pauline Lierman: Certainly and certain buildings are doing well. You see testing ground of new projects along the Yonge corridor in the financial district and [inaudible 00:07:19] all those buildings are achieving extremely high rents. Certainly the Casa buildings from Cresford and 1000 Bay. These are the type of units that $3 is low. $3.50 is more realistic for them.

Andrew la Fleur: Mm-hmm (affirmative), absolutely. Let’s jump into, again, the report itself that you guys just put out. So many amazing things in it. Obviously, this is for your subscribers so if people want to get the goods they can obviously subscribe to get this. In terms of high level stuff, what are, we talked about a few of the things, but what were the key findings really, the key things that jumped out from the Q4 numbers in this report?

Pauline Lierman: I think the biggest thing is that we’ve seen the actual volume flatten out. Overall, in the year we had just over 26,602 rental units completed. I think when you find next week when we release the rest of our data, that you’re going to see a very strong symmetry in the markets, but that is interesting because it’s now come down about 4%. You’re kind of starting to see it flat line.

Rental as a market as a whole has been the real driver over the last three years. It’s seen successive gains year over year. Where this is the first time we’ve actually seen a couple of quarters where the actual rentals have actually come down slightly. They’re still high, still close to record level, but not at that growth rate we’ve seen. That of course has a lot to do with the actual registrations and the completions on that end.

At the end of year, I found that we’ve got about just about 17,700 that actually registered, so I mean they reached a final closing. That’s down 21% from a year ago. We’re really seeing less of that type of product [inaudible 00:09:16] finished. It should come up again in 2017. I’m pretty optimistic about that. That’s going forward. In the short term, I’m expecting that the market actually is going to push the average monthly rent over 2,000. It’s seen consistent gains throughout the year. We’re sitting at 1,990 right now as the average for Q4. That’s about a 7% growth very shortly. We’ve kind of seen the tightness between the listings and the leases on that end.

What we’re also noticing is we’re actually starting to see more and more continually the average size is coming down still. This in Q4 to Q4 versus last year, the average size that actually rented is 32 square feet smaller. That’s coming into play as well. We’ll see more of that especially as all the product that is under construction reaches that stage. We’ll continue see it. It might start to flatten out because certainly we see the growth this year in terms of a new condo market having slightly larger units. I’m just thinking about that in the window term, that means that 2019 and 2020 might see that growth.

Andrew la Fleur: As you look back, we’re talking about Q4 reports so now all the numbers are in for 2016, as you look back and if can recall in your memory from the reports you guys did 12 months ago and you always are looking forward and saying what you’re expecting in the year ahead, how did 2016 play out in reality versus what you predicted? What you thought was gonna happen? What were the differences in how 2016 was versus what you were predicting one year ago?

Pauline Lierman: I think that we were pretty close in terms of volume. We certainly expected, the level of activity that we saw falls quite in line with what we expected. Where we kind of got thrown was the rent. Honestly we went [inaudible 00:11:15] all the supply would actually keep the rents tempered, in the 2% to 3% growth range versus what we saw which is four times that. That was our biggest deviation from what we saw year to year from last year.

Certainly, we’ve been tracking for about almost a year and a half, two years now, the purpose built end. We thought that it would be a small but growing factor. We we’re certainly watching. We did have a number of new projects finish this year. That was a good testing ground for the appetite for the market and the demand for these type of units. We were pleasantly surprised that they were able to get, able to absorb very quickly within a six month ratio most most of these buildings or less, and they were able to actually get $3 a foot. They’re actually getting a little bit more than the condo market. That has a lot to do with the centralization of services within these buildings as well. Those are the two biggest things that we saw overall.

Andrew la Fleur: Yeah. Like you said, a year ago you were thinking rents would go up in the 2% – 3% range and they’ve actually gone up three, four times that. What’s driving that? Is that just because the number of new units coming into the market was less than expected or is there more to that story?

Pauline Lierman: There is a lot more to that. Certainly that’s part of the factor, not getting the deliverables we expected, but it’s also the economics, the economy in the city of Toronto. Certainly hiring growth has increased even on the part time level, up to part time to full time. We’ve seen job growth in the GTA. We’ve also seen a influx of increased immigration which is something that has been slowing a little last five, six years if not more. Everybody talks about 100,000, I don’t have the exact number for this year, but now that we’ve switched over the last year, we’ve seen a growth in that.

Also, intermigration. The people from Alberta who might have went out there to work for a number of years are coming back to Ontario. You’re getting that overall population demand in household formation that’s actually pushing this.

Andrew la Fleur: Very interesting. Certainly seeing a lot of people coming back from Alberta as you said. I have many stories of people … I’m sure you know people that went out there for work and they’re doing well and now they come back. The jobs are not there. They’re coming back and the job market here is very strong. How much do you think that the new mortgage rules that came into place in the fourth quarter had an effect on things?

Pauline Lierman: I think that it’s going to make it tighter in, at least, the midterm. I think that also because of the rent growth, there might be some reluctance to give up one’s unit so the turnover rate might actually slow down in that end. [inaudible 00:14:08] I can certainly relate to you’ve got great rent and you don’t want to go up there. You’re going to end up spending four or five hundred dollars more a month. Maybe that’s great if you’re sharing with a bunch of people but if you’re a young professional or a professional couple and you’re trying to save, what’s your choice there? That $500 can be put towards savings for a mortgage down the road. Certainly thinking as we have price growth in our low rise market as well.

Andrew la Fleur: I think it’s similar, just from a psychological standpoint. If you look at the consumer, the renter, the homeowner, in this hot market that we’re in, there seems to be this prevalence of this belief that the market is so hot, I don’t want to move. People almost freeze in place. It’s so expensive to move that nobody wants to move. Whether it’s renters that don’t want to move because rents have gone up but they’re looking and saying, “Wow. I’m sitting pretty at this rent I had from a couple of years ago.” The same thing in the resale market. We’re seeing listing way down. Nobody seems to want to move.

Pauline Lierman: Listing are down massively in the resale market. It actually makes me a little hesitant on the resale end how constraint it is at this point. [inaudible 00:15:38] too, renovations. I’d love to see the numbers on that, figures on annual renovation money that goes into it right now because I think it’s massive.

Andrew la Fleur: Yeah. Instead of moving, just stay and renovate. I wonder what the renter equivalent of that is, I don’t know. Get another cat or something.

Pauline Lierman: I don’t hear it really, but in New York, it’s not uncommon to renovate your unit and you’re a renter. Go to the owner and say, “I’d like to redo the bathroom.” As long as it’s okay with them, it’s pretty much like a given thing.

Andrew la Fleur: Again, it’s almost like part of the story of the city maturing, the market maturing, and it’s becoming … There’s more and more parallels with a city like New York in terms of some of these things. It’s interesting.

Looking forward like future looking, how do you think the purpose built rental in particular? I’m interested to hear what you think about that. Obviously, some investors might look at that and condo investors might say … There might be some concern that at some point there’s going to be a glut of units available as these thousands of purpose built rentals come onto the market.

How do you see the relationship playing out over the next two to three years between the purpose built market and the high rise condo market? Will the number of units completed be about the same or will we see a huge increase, because it’s like, we’re still building the same number of condos but now we’re also adding all these purpose builts? Or is it really just the condo builders are, “I’m not going to build a condo, I’m going to build a rental.” How do you see it playing out?

Pauline Lierman: I think that it will be very geography specific. I’ll give you a picture right now. We’ve seen the applications for purpose built rentals grow from 30 to 83, so 30 projects to 83 projects. That actually means 17,000 almost 18,000 new units purposed of dedicated purpose built rentals. They’re very geographically clustered. We certainly see them in the city of Toronto. We see them in some corridors where there isn’t much condo growth too. Certain areas in North York, or certain areas of Scarborough, there might be some intensification of properties. I think that the market can sustain both.

Keeping in mind that the purpose built really is kind of a drop in the bucket. We’ve seen about 4,000 units actually complete this year and they were readily absorbed. No different than the condo rental market. If you’re thinking that you’re going to be in a cluster of an area where there might be a lot of purpose built rentals, you might have to look and really look at everything in the area, but that has to meet also with the levels of demand. If the economy is still good and things are going along with that, I think that there’s room for both on that end. I honestly think that when you actually look at them, or whether it’s just applications … Plenty of applications can shift from week to week. They do all the time.

Some of the larger developments I’ve seen have this purpose built rentals and have a mix of both. This figure, you know, there might be that area for ownership and rental at the same time. I could see that because it really does vary by age and demand. Certainly, with however the crown related housing costs are, maybe you rent for a while. Then you move over to a condo and buy, or vice versa. Maybe somebody decides … They’re a little bit older and they downsize into the rental because they prefer that.

Andrew la Fleur: You mean within a same building? Rentals and condos?

Pauline Lierman: Same kind of development area. If there’s a multi-building master plan community, that could work very well. Different needs, different lifestyle stages.

Andrew la Fleur: Right. Okay. Interesting. What, in terms of purpose built rentals, are expected to come online in 2017? Is it a big jump from last year?

Pauline Lierman: Let me see. I have to go to my wonderful numbers on that one.

Andrew la Fleur: Okay. No worries. No worries.

Pauline Lierman: We had about 5100 under construction as of … We expect about half of that number to actually be completed. About 2500, 2600 units actually to be completed in 2017. That’s not a lot. That’s only maybe about five buildings overall. They’re spread out over the GTA. In the short term, not a lot. Compare that to maybe, say, 18,000 to 20,000 condo units, so not very much. It’s that broader outlook that we may start to have to look at. Typically, it takes them no difference to actually build versus a condo. It might take them less time to actually get the financing. If they’re going purpose built, and they’ve got the financing, [inaudible 00:20:56]. It’s just maybe having their planning in place. That might be something to think about to in timeframe.

I don’t expect the actual purpose built market to increase in terms of scope for another couple of years. A lot of these applications just went in, so as you know, it still takes time to go through that process.

Andrew la Fleur: Right. Good. It’s been great chatting with you as always Pauline. Just wondering if there’s something that a lot of people don’t understand or don’t realize about the rental market right now but that you wish they would? Is there a theme, or a common thing, a misconception that you come across often that you wanted to bring up or address?

Pauline Lierman: Oh man. From a data perspective? It is very much a data geek perspective. I think that the perception that everyone uses Craigslist or Kijiji. I’ve heard different things about that. We’ve actually seen the number on the MLS grow over the last year and a half, tracking the volumes. On that end … Actually, anecdotally, I’ve talked to a few people that say there’s not as much Craigslist as there is Kijiji. That’s the one thing with that, but overall, I think the perception that … I’m losing my train of thought here. You’ll have to pardon me. That the market really is going to be a wash.

Obviously, the numbers put [inaudible 00:22:37] to that. We’re certainly not breaking out of the mold for the industry in terms of delivering units. We thought at one time we wouldn’t, and everybody holds … All of a sudden, there’s like all these condos under construction and we’re going to be getting hit with 25K. Every year we look at a chart that tells us what is expected to occupy this year and it’s a massive number. Ever year that gets peeled back as it goes. Even if it’s just minor. It’s very common.

I mean, for example, we had an elevator strike for part of the year. People lose two to three months maybe on their occupancy there on that front. It’s just minor things that can hold a project back from actually reaching completion. It ends up, at the end of the day, that the number falls and we end up where we are, back where we started unexpectedly.

Andrew la Fleur: Great, yes, so true. Okay Pauline, thank you so much. We’ve ran out of time but I do appreciate your time as always. Thank you for sharing your insights. If people want to get a hold of you or learn more about Urbanation, what’s the best place for them to do that?

Pauline Lierman: Best place is That will start you down the road.

Andrew la Fleur: Okay, great. We’ll certainly include a link to that in the show notes.

Pauline Lierman: You know, our twitter feed’s good.

Andrew la Fleur: Yeah, your twitter feed is gold as always. Always a great source of insights on what’s happening in the market. Okay, Pauline, thank you so much.

Pauline Lierman: Have a great day. Thank you.

Speaker 2: Thanks for listening to the True Condo’s Podcast. Remember, your positive reviews make a big difference to the show. To learn more about condo investing, become a True Condo subscriber by visiting