The Future of the GTA Property Market with George Carras of Realnet
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George Carras, President of Realnet, talks about the latest economic and market data and how this affects the GTA property market, as well as how policy makers need to work with the industry and consumers to make it a better market moving forward.
George Carras Interview Highlights
00:10 Who is George Carras
00:48 Bank of Canada Has Lowered Their Rates
4:15 How George Carras Got Started in Real Estate
6:25 How Will Lower Rates Affect the GTA Real Estate Market?
9:00 Will Interest Rates Increase Significantly?
10:20 Takeaways from The Real Insider Event
13:30 The Evolution of GTA 3.0
20:00 What Lower Gas Prices Means for Us
23:00 Mortgage Principle Payback
25:00 Developers Buying Projects as Rental Buildings
28:55 Why Aren’t There Any Condos on the Danforth?
32:50 The Price Gap Between Low Rise Pricing & High Rise Pricing
37:53 How to Reach George Carras or Realnet
How to Leave a Review for The True Condos Podcast on iTunes
George Carras Interview Transcript
Andrew la Fleur: Hi, and welcome back to the show. On today’s show, we have George Carras, the president of RealNet. We’ll get to that interview in just a minute. George is one of the real leaders and, I guess you could say, one of the smartest guys in the room when it comes to the real estate markets in Canada, but specifically in the GTA. George will be talking to us about some macro and micro trends that are happening in the market. We’ll get to that interview in just a minute.
Huge news out this week is that the Bank of Canada, to many people’s surprise … If you listen to this podcast, then you’re probably not surprised at all, because I’ve been talking about this for a long time. To many people’s surprise, the Bank of Canada has in fact lowered their prime lending rate by 25 basis points. Once again, the story over the past year or two has been, “Everyone get ready. Interest rates are going up. Interest rates are going up. Everyone brace yourself for this new reality, this shock to the market. Things are going to change soon. The days of cheap money are gone.”
This thinking has really been in the media headlines for a long time now. What’s happened basically is that the oil prices have completely collapsed, and that’s really threatening certain aspects of the Canadian economy. The Bank of Canada’s responded by actually lowering the interest rate from three percent to .75 for the prime lending rate. If you are a investor, that is great news. Money just got cheaper. Your buying power just increased. If you are a mortgage holder, a variable mortgage holder, you are very happy. Myself, I always go with variable mortgages, and I always encourage my clients to do the same.
I was looking at my statements actually just today. My mortgage rates, looks like they vary currently from 2.1 percent to 2.5 percent. Presumably, if the banks follow suit, which they usually do with what the Bank of Canada does, then as of tomorrow, my mortgage rates will be going down to 1.85 percent, up to about 2.25 percent being the highest mortgage rate that I’m paying, which is making me very happy as an investor. Means my cash flows are going to improve. More money in my pocket every month. It just means that my bottom-line ROI on these investment units that I have just got a little bit better, which is always a good thing.
Once again, my advice to anybody who’s looking for a mortgage for your investment condo: go variable. You certainly will not regret it. There’s different philosophies on variable versus fixed, but my personal one is always go variable. We can talk more about that in future episodes. We’ll try to get some mortgage brokers on to share some opinions on that classic question of variable versus fixed. For me, there really is no question. You always want to go variable, and that is how you’re going to get the best rates, and save the most money, and get the best cash flow in the long run.
Okay. That’s really the big news of the week. We’re going to now get to the interview with George Carras from RealNet Canada. Here it is.
Andrew la Fleur: Okay, it’s my pleasure to welcome to the show George Carras. George is the president of RealNet Canada. Welcome to the show, George.
George Carras: Thanks, Andrew. Good to be here.
Andrew la Fleur: Why don’t we get started? Why don’t you tell everybody a little bit about yourself, who you are, your company, and how did you get started in the real estate industry?
George Carras: It’s a long story, but I’ll keep it real short. I started RealNet back in 1995. I’m a civil engineer by profession. I’d say passion for both real estate and technology, and realized that there, in 1995, was a better way to inform property markets than was taking place at the time. It’s been an absolute passion to continuously improve the level of information and the decision making across the property markets, both here in Toronto and across Canada. We’ve been working on that mission for the last 20 years. Last year, RealNet was sold to the Altus Group, so now a large, publicly traded company. The mission now continues and continues to grow at a higher rate.
Andrew la Fleur: Great. Maybe take us back in time, if you will. What were you doing before real estate? Were
you always in real estate from day one? What was the genesis to get into what you’re doing?
George Carras: I was in development. I was a civil engineer, worked in construction, in development. Therein, in the development capacity, working in various forms, commercial, residential, condominium, development. You realize there was a better way to do things. That’s when, as an entrepreneur, you quit your day job and started running with ideas that you thought could make a difference, and you stick to it. My early days were really as a civil engineer in the development industry.
Andrew la Fleur: Okay. Breaking news just today that we just found out about is the Bank of Canada just announced a rate cut, much to many people’s surprise. They just dropped the rate by 25 basis points. What’s your take on that? Did that catch you by surprise? Did you see it coming? How is that going to affect the GTA real estate market?
George Carras: I would see that as, obviously, a positive outcome for price growth, but that isn’t necessarily a positive thing. I think what’s important is what the response to that’s going to be by people’s expectations of future rates, because a rate today isn’t necessarily going to be a rate five years from now. I think a lower rate will cause prices ultimately to rise. That’s something that you got to be mindful of not for today’s decisions but how they impact the situation, say, five years from now.
Andrew la Fleur: Okay. Just flesh that out a bit. I think I know where you’re going, but what does that mean for the, let’s say, a condo investor who’s looking at buying something today? What does that mean for them?
George Carras: It depends on the stage of investment. If you are buying an asset that exists today, you can lock in your debt with the acquisition. If it’s a resale condo, you can more precisely measure that. If it’s a pre-sale condo, now I think what you’re looking at is the notion of when will you be making that commitment to buy. If that’s today, when will that be coming on stream? If that’s three, four years from now, chances are … and who knows? It’s like the crystal ball. Chances are, though, that those rates, when you’re going to be closing, will be higher. Now, probably a quarter-point down means that there’s more risk in the upside in the future five years. I think the pre-con buyer should be very careful about how they utilize this low rate in making that future’s decision.
Andrew la Fleur: Okay. Asking you to pull out your crystal ball a little bit, but in your personal opinion, do you think that interest rates will rise significantly five years from now?
George Carras: It is so hard to say. I don’t think I’m at all qualified to be making a forecast. I just think in the grand scheme of things, if you’re a conservative investor, which I would tend personally to lean towards, your bet that you’re going to get lower rates five years from now, possible. You’re seeing it in the euro now, where you actually have to pay to have the bank …
Andrew la Fleur: Like negative interest rates.
George Carras: … to keep your money, yeah. One school of thought could be the world is heading towards that, and therefore, rates can go lower. In my mind, a more prudent bet would be that you will see, at some point, rates move up, I think especially in a very complicated form of investment like pre-construction condominiums. That’s a major risk. I think people should be factoring a more conservative forecast of that going forward than an aggressive one.
Andrew la Fleur: Interesting. Let’s move on to … We just came out of your big annual conference. I forget the name of the event yesterday.
George Carras: The Real Insider Event.
Andrew la Fleur: Real Insider Event, yes, which was fantastic. Heard from a lot of great speakers. What were your top three, say, takeaways from that event or top three highlights for you from all the information that was presented?
George Carras: Clearly, summing it all up, I think what you really are looking at … You have to be very careful about interpreting the market gauges, if you will. I think what we are now doing is entering in a new era of the property markets, I think GTA 3.0.
Andrew la Fleur: Right. Maybe we’ll talk about that, the GTA 3.0 concept that you presented yesterday. What is that, and what does it mean exactly?
George Carras: I think in looking at the GTA, if you put it into three categories, GTA 1.0 was the market that we had grown up with up until the introduction of the provincial intensification policies in 2005, 2006, with the Greenbelt and Places to Grow. The last 10 years and, in fact, understanding the current results really is about these results being 10 years in the making. That is really the shift in land-use policy and growth policy to intensification, the grow-up-not-out approach to the region’s future, which was a plan in 2005. The last 10 years, the market was simply responding to the implementation of that plan.
The results today are really a bit of an extremity situation, where on the new-home market … The new-home market is the flow of new housing into the stock. If we think about it, every home or condo that exists today was at one point a new home or condo built in the then-policy regime of the day. Looking at the flow today is very important to understand what the stock of housing is going to be in the future, and that future’s GTA 3.0.
You now, though, in this era, intensification is not a plan. It is reality, evidenced also by the record number of condo completions which we realized in 2014. That, too, was a decade in the making. We completed a record number of condos. You back that up, because we had a record number that were being built because we had a record number that were being sold, and because, if you rewind that further, it’s because those are the choices that were available. That was really a result of intensification policies, a shift towards more high-rise development but away from the traditional low-rise, ground-oriented, detached home form of housing that this region grew up with through GTA 1.0.
Andrew la Fleur: Right. Okay. Just to summarize again what the concept is for everybody, the GTA 1.0 is up until 2005, when the Greenbelt was introduced, essentially. GTA 2.0 is the last 10 years we’ve observed under the Greenbelt policy, which has resulted in this major shift from primarily low-rise development being approximately 75 percent of the market, high-rise being approximately 25 percent. Now 10 years in, slowly we’ve seen this shift to the point where it’s pretty much inversed. I don’t know the exact numbers. I’m sure you have them, but it’s something like 70, 80 percent of the new homes are high-rise, versus 20, 30 percent.
George Carras: If you get more precise, Andrew, you’re right. I think if you looked at, by product form, the condo apartment was the number-one-selling new-home product in the GTA last year. Fifty percent of new-home sales in the region was an apartment condo. Detached homes was 25 percent. That’s a two-to-one ratio. One out of every two new homes is now an apartment condo. That’s really significant. They’re now outselling detached two to one. That’s an inverse of what we would have seen pre-Greenbelt.
Andrew la Fleur: Right, and so 3.0, the next five or 10 years, what do you see happening? Do you see more and more and more intensification, more and more shift towards specifically high-rise development? Do you see consumer backlash, where they say, “No, we demand more low-rise housing”?
George Carras: I think this is really the tremendous opportunity we have together in 2015 to figure out what happens next, because there’s no “they” in this story. We are all in this together: consumers, the industry, and governments. Everyone, literally, we’re all in this housing thing together. What we have to do is look back on the last 10 years and realize what that has meant and where we’re going. There is an introduction now of a review by the provincial government of the results of Greenbelt and Places to Grow. I think this is a very important time.
Andrew la Fleur: They’re looking back at the 2.0, GTA 2.0. “Let’s see what happened, and let’s see …”
George Carras: Exactly.
Andrew la Fleur: Maybe there will be new policies introduced for GTA 3.0, perhaps, where we’ll see the policies result in another shift. I’m just curious. What’s your personal preference? What would you like to see happen for a healthy market moving forward?
George Carras: I think one of the things we really need is some better alignment in the policy framework. There’s a few things that I mean by that. The policy framework, whenever you talk about housing market policy framework, we always think about monetary policy. Land-use policy is a very important part of that. In that, there’s a lot of complexity. Is it provincial? Is it regional? Is it municipal? Is it local? When you actually look at trying to implement that, there is a lot of friction in that process.
I think realigning that is going to be critical to the outcome. Streamlining that is going to be critical to the outcome. It all ties together, including transit. Then you also need an alignment between land-use policies and monetary policies, if the way forward is truly about more high-rise development. We haven’t talked about this, but we should, is the condition on the low-rise market, which is this massive extremity condition between one form of housing and the other.
If we are going to have more high-density homes, people should be aware of that. If that is the plan for the future, that should be extremely well communicated to the citizens, both now and the future, of what they can be expecting. Also, the monetary policies should be lining up with them. If we’re going to have more high-rise development, then the financial system should be tuned to help facilitate that.
Andrew la Fleur: What might that look like exactly, specifically with high-rise development? What do you mean exactly, the financial system should be tuned?
George Carras: This is on the industry side as well as the consumer side. You need more money, Andrew, in the system to build 300 units of housing vertically than horizontally. In the day when you would have a 300-unit subdivision, the amount of capital required on the industry side is less than it would be if you’re building a new condo. The system needs more money to build them.
Then on the other end, I think what we see here is … this speaks to the condominium investor … is the level of sophistication to really start to treat a portfolio of condominiums as a real investment portfolio with a level of sophistication, access to debt capital, that an emerging asset class, which is really what condominiums are right now, would deserve. We need to treat them … I feel like this is my Ray Kroc moment. I didn’t invent the condo, but I want to treat it very seriously. That was Ray Kroc’s great line about the hamburger. We need to do some of that, and we need to look at this in a lot more sophisticated way than we have.
Andrew la Fleur: Interesting. Let’s shift gears again back to the Insider Event yesterday. Benjamin Tal from CIBC was one of the speakers there talking about the macro picture of the economy. One of the [inaudible 00:20:10] he was talking obviously a lot about right now is oil prices and how it’s going to affect things. What’s your take on the falling oil prices and how that will affect, again, the GTA and specifically the condo market?
George Carras: I think what Ben was saying is that, as a lower-cost regime, and it was a significant impact, so it makes the equivalent of your average … typically around gas prices, it takes cost out of the annual budget, if you will. That actually …
Andrew la Fleur: Yeah, he had an interesting stat. He said something to the effect of, when you crunch the numbers, the current price of oil reflected in lower gas prices and everything has an effect of, I think he said it was about, a 50-basis-point drop in your typical Canadian mortgage. It’s like cheaper gas equals your savings is equivalent to …
Andrew la Fleur: … your mortgage rate just went down half a percentage point for everyone.
George Carras: Right. I think what the one takeaway is that lower oil prices, while hurting the coffers of governments from a tax perspective, from an individual household perspective, if you flow that through the cheaper cost of running things, that’s a positive thing.
Andrew la Fleur: Yeah, yeah. The main thing I took out of it was he was saying everybody just needs to chill out a little bit and remember that cheap oil is, all things considered, cheap oil is a good thing for the Canadian economy. It’s not a bad thing. We don’t need to panic. Yes, we feel sorry for our brothers and sisters in Alberta, but overall, it is good for Canada.
George Carras: The other thing I think that’s interesting on that is the intra-provincial migration. I think what you also see is the migration west as a result of the energy sector booming. It pauses at this moment. Things are moving so quickly, it’s really hard to see, but that actually might turn the amount of momentum of population growth to this region …
Andrew la Fleur: Back to Ontario, yeah.
George Carras: … back up. What that ultimately means is more people, more people, the household … People need a place to live, whether they own it or rent it. That, too, has maybe a bit of a …
Andrew la Fleur: Spillover.
George Carras: … a positive subtitle to it.
Andrew la Fleur: Yeah. On the mortgage market, Benjamin Tal brought up a couple points. One was that mortgage principal payback, he had some stats to show that mortgage principal paydown by Canadians is at an all-time high. He also was saying, at the same time, the subprime mortgage market is booming. What’s your interpretation of those points that he was talking about?
George Carras: Then the last point, he said it was booming, but off a very small base. Ultimately, I think the point there was that there’s a materiality question of, “How important is that?” I think the real condition goes back to my point earlier of, you need to treat this condominium space as an emerging asset class. It needs some of that thinking.
If this had an institutional flavor to it, there would be a lot more discipline in terms of the leverage used for that investment. If you look at institution investors, public investors, they have a lot of rigor in terms of how much leverage they choose to use in acquiring hard assets. I think the same is really important there. I think if you look at Ben’s comment about Canadians overall paying down debt, I think there’s a drift to fiscal prudence that you’re seeing in that number. I think that that’s extremely important as you look at the pre-construction condo space, to maintain that prudence and to also start thinking about how all of us, the entirety of the system, start to treat that with … than we …
Andrew la Fleur: It’s interesting point. Speaking of the institutional side, we’ve seen now this trend emerging. I don’t know if you’ve looked at it, but the institutional investors coming in and buying up entire condo buildings pre-construction or buying up huge chunks of buildings to use as rental stock. What are you seeing there? What does that say about the market when you see that happening?
George Carras: Great question. One of the things that … you can look back on the last decade or two, is that one of the roles of condominiums has been to supply rental stock into the rental market. On the back of the individual condo investor, we’ve carried the growth in the rental stock. I think we’re at a point now, though, that we are seeing institutional investors looking at moving into purpose-built rental in a more substantial way.
I think what we have typically thought of as purpose-built rental and competing condominium investment, competing with that, is not going to be what lies ahead. I think what you’ll see from these institutional investors in the lifestyle and the quality, and, quite frankly, in their capability of delivering this new purpose-built format, will be very competitive with the condo equivalent.
I think the institutional investors, you say, “Why are they doing this now?” Part of that is because when you look at cap rates … If you’re an institutional investor, you like hard assets. You really like apartments, because you can align with inflation on an annual basis versus, say, holding an office building where you’ve got a five-year term on your rents. You like the space. Instead of having to pay dearly for it if and when those apartment buildings come to market on a very low cap rate, you’re prepared to take some of the development risk, because you’re a large institution, and to build that income stream.
Andrew la Fleur: Build it yourself as opposed to, like you said, buying an existing building requiring much more capital. Is that what you mean?
George Carras: Or low cap rate. If you’re going to buy a new apartment building … Really, it doesn’t exist, but even the old apartment buildings that are trading now are trading in the GTA with very low cap rates. The average cap rate across GTA we track was 5.1 percent. That’s across the GTA. When you start to look at better urban markets, those cap rates can have a four, they can have a three in front of them. You’re seeing really aggressive low cap rates. The thesis around the institutional investor is, instead of coming away and paying dearly for that, their yield expectation can move up, could double, if you …
Andrew la Fleur: Build it yourself, essentially?
George Carras: … [crosstalk 00:28:00] build it. That’s right.
Andrew la Fleur: Right. Wow.
George Carras: That’s the situation that might be a little different going forward, is that you will see more, I’d say, better-quality purpose-built rental coming into the space, because there’s a capital supply that’s available there. There’s an investment rationale that is there. One is not better than the other. This is where markets determine what is the best outcome. I think if you’re the retail investor, you have to be clearly aware of what’s happening in and around the specific project that you now have and that you are thinking of buying, so that you know everything.
Andrew la Fleur: Right, right. Different topic altogether, but a great interesting point that you brought up yesterday, basically the question is, why are there no condos on the Danforth?
George Carras: That’s right. We showed an interesting thematic map on … We drew a little 500-meter radius around each subway station that exists today and that’s planned, and then looked at how much of the condo development in the GTA in Toronto occurred inside of that 500-meter area, so how much is really on subway. Then you saw that there’s this …
Andrew la Fleur: You saw a lot of bubbles on the map, all up and down Yonge Street, University Ave, the University line, and then you saw just this long subway line going out east, the Danforth line …
George Carras: With nothing on it.
Andrew la Fleur: … with nothing.
George Carras: Yeah. I think part of that, talking about the alignment of policies, so think about this. You have a provincial government says grow up, not out. That has to get cascaded through regional governments and municipal governments. That obviously, in this case, is in the City of Toronto, which has a also-changing landscape in official plan and zoning. This is where the nimbyism … See how powerful nimbyism is. You have an area which really has resisted that form of development.
Andrew la Fleur: Very successfully.
George Carras: There’s the proof. I think this is the question now that we have to come together, all of us, and say where, and Danforth being one …
Andrew la Fleur: Yeah, just as an example. Yeah, we see this massive transit line. Everyone’s fighting and fighting for more transit, essentially because the Yonge Street line is so congested. We’re saying, “We need a relief line. We need other ways to get into the financial center, the Financial District, essentially.” Nobody’s really saying, “What if we just took our existing rapid-transit lines that have very little employment and very little intensification on them, and what if we made new nodes as a solution to the gridlock issues in the city?”
George Carras: Therein is the opportunity. I think there’s an importance to also understand the capacity of that existing infrastructure. In theory, if you did redevelop the Danforth and you got those people on the Bloor-Danforth line, they got to have to connect to get onto the Yonge-University Line. There’s a finite capacity that already exists there, hence the need for the Downtown Relief Line.
There’s an observation there that says … In the analysis that we did, it was twofold. One is only 41 percent of the condo development was actually on a subway, which, if you’re going to score us together, that’s an F. We really didn’t make it on that context. It also says that you’re seeing intensification, you’re seeing that take place not just along subways but in other parts of the city and the region, as well.
I think the other takeaway is, when you looked at the response, the investor market response in the opening months, if you were on subway, our stats show that the initial months’ sales across the region in 2014, 72 percent, versus 43 percent if you were off subway. It was clearly a lot more demand if you’re in that 500-meter radius from the subway. The market gets that instantly in the opening of that project, versus being off that subway.
Andrew la Fleur: Right. Let’s talk about the … Something that you talk about a lot is this relationship between the low-rise market and the high-rise market. The fact is that the price gap between the low-rise pricing and high-rise pricing is at an all-time high, as you talked about yesterday. Average price gap is now, what, 251,000 dollars? Compare that to … Just so people have context, it’s 251,000-dollar gap today. What was it 10 years ago, say?
George Carras: You would have seen that gap … The interesting thing here is that what’s causing that widening …
Andrew la Fleur: Yeah, what is the story behind the story here?
George Carras: It all comes back to GTA 2.0. Basically, the price of the homes that we’re making more of, high-rise, are flat, relatively flat, and the price of the homes that we’re making less of are rising. Therein lies this gap. Historically … That took us, by the introduction of the plan, it took five years for the supply, if you will, the gas that was in the tank, so to speak, to start to really run out. Then the extremity condition really kicked in about three years ago, where the gap which historically moved in unison … If low-rise home price went up, high-rise price went up. Both those were separated by a gap of about 75,000 dollars. That was a very consistent gap.
Andrew la Fleur: Consistent gap.
George Carras: Plus or minus, but that was the gap. Since end of 2011, you really started to see that gap widen, and widen, and widen, and widen. The reason it’s widening isn’t because condo prices are dropping. They’re actually holding relatively flat. They’re up this year four percent. Some of that is really compositional based on size. It got a little bigger this year. Most of that’s because the low-rise price is now increasing and constantly increasing. The framework that’s in place now shows no sign of that changing.
If the gap here … I think if you did a compare to, say, a Vancouver. Vancouver would be a very similar important one for us to look at, because, A, it’s a Canadian city. It’s probably about 15 years ahead of Toronto from an intensification perspective. The gap in Vancouver, it’s not 250. That’s where they were 10 years ago. That gap is now closer to 750, perhaps 800,000 dollars. The question that we have to ask …
Andrew la Fleur: Do we want to become Vancouver, or do we want to do something else?
George Carras: It is up to everyone … This is why a better informed stakeholder, and we’re all in it together. Better informed governments, better informed industry, and better informed consumers. Very powerful to drive the outcome of what we’re going to see. Andrew, I think this is one really great opportunity, if I could just share my market formula here for everyone.
Andrew la Fleur: Please do, yeah.
George Carras: It’s very simple. This is the engineer in me. Outcome equals event plus response. People always look at the events of the day and think that that’s the outcome. That’s only half the answer. What’s more defining, and this is hugely powerful, because you can control 100 percent of the outcome that you do. The response to this condition now individually and collectively is going to be what determines what does 2025 look like.
Andrew la Fleur: Yeah. It’s going to be interesting to see what, like you said, how we do respond to that. Not to put you on the spot, but you get asked a lot of questions by media and different interviews and things. Is there one question, though, that no one has ever asked you but that you wished that they would, either about yourself, or about the company, or about the market? Is there something that we’re missing that no one’s asking that you wish that people would ask more?
George Carras: I’m a pretty transparent guy. It’s a good question. I think we’ve said a lot, and I don’t think there’s anything that’s hidden that we’re not telling anybody. I think there’s been some really good questions asked. There’s nothing that’s jumping to mind that we haven’t talked about. There’s a lot to talk about. I don’t know if we’ve covered it all here, but I think there’s … “We’re all in it together” is the main message.
Andrew la Fleur: Yeah. That’s great. If people want to find you, get a hold of you, or get a hold of RealNet, what’s the best way to do that?
George Carras: Depending on what they’re trying to do, ultimately I think the facts that RealNet researches and the information there, the best way is to contact yourself or a TREB member. I think that by most effective channel because you’re informed. You have the perspective, and you have the ability to help interpret the results of that to people. If it’s, “Hey, I’d like to learn more about the company,” www.realnet.ca is the best bet. That’ll help route you to where you need to go.
Andrew la Fleur: Great. Great. We’ll be sure to include a link to that on the show notes for this episode.
George, I want to thank you again very much for your time today. Thanks for doing this interview with us. I hope we can have you on the show again soon.
George Carras: Thanks, Andrew. It’s great to be here. Good luck. Good decisions in 2015. Look forward to it.
Andrew la Fleur: Great. Thank you.
George Carras: Thank you.
Speaker 1: Welcome to the True Condos Podcast with Andrew la Fleur, the place to get the truth on the Toronto condo market and condo investing in Toronto.
Andrew la Fleur: Okay, there you have it. That was my interview with George Carras from RealNet, president of RealNet. Thank you very much, George, for that great interview. I hope you enjoyed it, the listener out there listening to this show. Once again, I appreciate your support, appreciate your kind words and emails and your reviews that you’ve left for this show. Once again, for the show notes on this episode, which will contain links to some of the things we were talking about, just head on over to truecondos.com/george. You’ll find the links will be there.
Thanks very much for listening. Have a great week, and happy investing.
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